I’ve had a hell of a time posting anything with substance here. (I don’t know why I’m bothering to telling you all that – it’s pretty obvious from the state of my blog.)
It doesn’t mean I haven’t been thinking, A LOT. I have. But my thoughts are contorted, and… Well, I have to be honest, I usually like to have my end of the conversation pretty solid before I go posting it in my blog. I don’t often post without thinking things through.
Thing is, I can’t find a way to make SENSE here at the moment.
I guess I’ll start with my musings on Truths, Trust and Honesty. I used to think they were interconnected on this 1:1:1 sort of ratio. And perhaps they still are connected, but definitely not to the degree I previously thought.
Trust is just… A feeling. I trust Antonio. As a human, as my Man. I trust him.
However, there are people who look at me a little funny when I say that, in light of a recent discovery. He told me he lied about something. What that thing is remains unimportant, for this discussion. It might be something I talk about later, but to me it is no big deal. It’s not like an “Oh by the way, I’m still legally married to some woman I never see, because I killed her and buried her in the backyard but no one knows so technically they think she is still alive – I mean, I cash her welfare checks and everything – I’m clever that way, but don’t tell anyone because if the police ever showed up they’d find the chick I kidnapped and crammed in my basement and have fathered six children with. Thaaaaaanks, cunt.”
I admit I’d have a cow if that were the situation. I’d probably pack my bags, and then decide at the last minute I would rather just go live in the basement with kidnapped-chick than deal with the reality. In any case, you’d never hear from me again.
(ADD Side Note: Speaking of basements (whatever, just pretend it’s related), I’m SUPER glad Kaya is back because now I can go perv on her blogging about SpankFest and mutter to myself “Next year. I want to go NEXT YEAR so bad, omg! I WILL GO NEXT YEAR!!!)
*ahem*
So Antonio lied to me about something. And I’ve told a few friends in real life what it was. I’ve gotten mostly the same reaction. It goes like this: “Oh my God! REALLY? Oh my God! *brief period to get over squealing from teh drama* Well. You’re happy, right? (Yes, very.) You love him, right? (Without question.) Then whatever, dude. It’s not like it matters. And work sucks and I’m going to go insane, we should totally be allowed to drink heavily at work. (I agree, on all counts.)”
So it’s left me WONDERING. How much does honesty have to do with truths and trust?
I have these intricately woven threads of trust, that stretch between me and Antonio. They started out weak, tentative, strings. They grew, they multiplied, they strengthened, they buried their ends – their roots – deeper inside of me and him as time went on.
And I guess I think a display of honesty can run it’s fine fingers along the thread and check for fraying, for weakness, and make repairs. A display of dishonesty plucks the thread, like a guitar string. Sometimes, it makes the string vibrate uncomfortably, and I feel it in my core. Sometimes it elicits a noise that stings my ear. But I know a hard enough yank would snap the string.
My trust can remain secure, unbroken, even in the face of certain dishonesty. There is a whole spectrum of dishonesty, and whether or not it matters just depends on how hard it plucks at my threads of trust.
- He says he’s going to come in my mouth one night, and doesn’t? It’s not exactly OMG THE END.
- He says, “I didn’t want to tell you until I knew all the details, because I know how you react, but my father is in the hospital – he had a heart attack.” Also not OMG THE END. Sure, I was a little upset with myself, that he felt he couldn’t tell me at first because my reaction might make things harder on him. But I wasn’t upset with HIM for hiding it from me.
- He gets a minor injury at work and doesn’t tell me, even though I’ve told him I want to know if he gets hurt? I might pout, but it’s not OMG THE END.
- He tells me he is secretly gay, that he kills homeless people on weekends, enjoys raping family members, and runs a sex trafficking ring? Well… Yanno. That might just be OMG THE END. If a massive heart attack followed by hospitalization for a complete mental breakdown can count as “the end.”
(P.S. – In case I was unclear, the first three happened. Last one, not so much.)
Anyway, finding out the truth behind the lie in question… It didn’t break my trust. I felt it, I heard that string sing… But it was a momentary disruption. I had one friend who said, “But if he lied about something for THAT LONG, who knows what else he is lying about!”
I understand that concern. It can be a real one. But I’m positive it’s not in this situation. I could try to explain to her why, but I’ve held off and just told her, “I get that concern and why you are concerned. But I’m not. I’m not worried.” She’s struggling right now, relationship wise – to the point of frustration and tears and the belief that she will settle with someone she doesn’t love and that ALL her friends will be happy. And as much as I love her, I know misery loves company. So I’m just not playing that game.
I do wonder, however, if things would have felt different if I had “caught” him in the lie. I didn’t. He just told me. He had no reason to tell me, other than to clear the slate. But, I wonder… Would it have been different if I had figured it out? Maybe.
I also wonder – and maybe some of you can answer me: What sort of dishonest would break YOUR trust? Is it confined to certain activities? Is it a matter of repetitious lying? Is is just something you’d FEEL but you can’t define?
I admit, I find it hard to believe that there is “instant honesty” in every moment of every relationship. I think there are delays in honesty, I think there are cover-ups, however temporary and for whatever cause – a surprise party, for instance… Or maybe wanting to “wait until he gets home” to tell him something.
Does that count as lying? Or is it about the liar’s intent, no matter how “big” the lie? Is there something universal, or is it just a set of personal definitions you have crafted in a relationship over time?
Also, how much does your relationship dynamic play a role in your definitions of lying and how they affect trust? Does your Master have a right to lie about anything he wants, and is that right something you’ve talked about, or is it just assumed? (I’m not asking if he WOULD lie, btw, or if that would make him a “good” Master or “bad” one – I’m not headed for that debate right now. I’m just asking IF it’s understood in your relationship that it’s within his Masterly omnipotence to lie whenever he wants, about whatever he wants, or if it’s not.)
The whole thing just fascinates me.
I remember once trying to explain lying to a precocious child I nannied. She had grabbed a cooking spoon and had brandished it at me. She grinned and said “C’mere. I want to cook your face!” I bent over, curled my fingers and said “I’ll EAT YOU UP!” (you know, like in Where the Wild Things Are.) She giggled and made to run for it. But then she came back and said, “We LIED, Chloe! We lie ALL the time!” She was right. We’d both opened our mouths and let words pour out that were not true. And we did it all the time. Then she wanted to know if that was naughty of us. I did my best to explain personal gain, intent, harm, and all that.
But I realize I’m still unsure about the nature of lying as a concrete concept. It seems so fluid… Every case is unique… Yet I know I make universal judgments about it. Bleh.
Anyway… That’s enough talking about general things. It’s high time I start talking about the best person in the universe – MYSELF – again. *flips hair*
After Antonio told me the truth he said….
“You have every right to be mad.”
I… I have… Every… Every “right” to… LOLWHAT?
I’m sitting there pondering… Since when do I have a right to be ANYTHING? Well, I guess since he told me I do. But still. Odd.
I suppose when I think about it, I’ve always operated under the impression I have every “right” to have every emotion, I just don’t have the right to model my actions accordingly, or to express them whenever I feel like it. Antonio may be my God, but he’s not under the impression he can stop me from feeling anything and everything he so chooses, on a whim. It’s less a “right” he gives me than it is a biological right. It’s sort of like if he told me “You have every right to feel shitty before your period.” Well, yes, biologically, I sure do, but not because you say so. Because my hormones make it so. I just can’t ACT on it. That’s where my “right” to feel shitty ends.
But he’s never really told me anything like that before – that I have every right to be mad. I told to him, as I would have done anyway, how it made me feel that he lied… But that phrase was still bugging me. I have every “right” to be mad…
In trying to figure out WHAT the hell he meant by that, if he just meant I was allowed to express my anger, or something totally odd like that I was allowed to hold it against him, was allowed to make him pay for it, etc., I realized something.
Through the whole thing – through telling me the truth, explaining how it came about, and why it took so long for him to tell me – there was something he didn’t do. Didn’t even come CLOSE to doing, in fact.
He never apologized.
And for some reason, that’s what grounded me and made me feel okay. He explained why it happened, how it came about, then he listened to my feelings and invited me to talk about it and take my time to organize my thoughts if I wanted to. But he never asked me to forgive him and he never apologized for lying.
I know some people might look at that (or him) poorly or think I’m insane (you know, for a change). And I will do a lousy job of explaining why it made me HAPPY. But… Still.
It DID make me happy. Because even when it comes to something like this – like admitting to a lie or a fault or anything – he does it well, with class and confidence, and he does it from a dominant position. He accepts responsibility and places blame on no one but himself, he offers explanations without trying to make them sound like excuses, he lets me talk and ask questions and ponder and joke around and re-ask the same questions over and over, and he responds – on his own time, of course. But he never puts himself in a submissive position, even one so “natural” for humans, such as asking someone for forgiveness by apologizing. If he felt bad about it? He’d said “I feel bad.” But it seems he’s not about to apologize.
And if that just isn’t the coolest damn thing on Earth… 
I think I’ve finally found someone who overthinks more than I do. =)
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I’ve read this several times and now and think I’d end up writing a post here if I tried to respond to it in comments. Will let it settle in my head and then email you, ok?
love and hugs xxx
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OK, this is just me…but lying about anything would be huge. The point is not whether the lie was about anything harmful, but the fact of him either not trusting me, or feeling he is justified in deception. We don’t want deceptions in our relationship, period. I think there is a big difference between not telling something at a particular time, and lying about it. Speaking an untruth is just that…an untruth. If my lover, partner, friend and husband can look me in the eye and lie to me…then what can I count on for sure? We just don’t lie to each other, no matter what. Either of us might say “I don’t want to talk about that now, “I am not ready to discuss it” or just avoid something to avoid conflict, although even that we have parameters for. We both know what the other expects to be told, and not disclosing is hiding…us not trusting the other. We are in this life together or not. Since the commitment is to be together, we just don’t hide (as best as we can) or lie. At this point in my marriage, if I found out Grant lied to me, I would simply be crushed. I think it is a matter of his respect for me and our marriage, and his basic integrity as well. I also have to say that I don’t think less of a man who can apologize, but more of him. Everyone has faults and makes mistakes. I feel my husband’s apology has to do with him taking responsibility and recognizing that he wronged me and asking my forgiveness. To me THAT is cool, that he can be dominant and yet humble, and that he sees me worthy of his esteem and respects me enough to feel he owes me his very best.
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@jenfrog – Heh. I aim to please!
@M:e – I very very much look forward to it. Thank you!!!
@Sara – I totally understand your point of view, I do. And thank you for sharing it. Though I have to disagree about lying and intent. There are things I can see him lying to me about and me being fine with it. Like a surprise party. If I said, “Hey, what are we doing tomorrow?” and he lied to cover it and said “Nothing.” or “We’re going out to dinner.” then the INTENT behind his lies are obviously important. Or, as I spoke to the little girl I nannied – when I speak untruths to her in jest, or because there are things she is not ready to hear, (or, in the case of that family, because they had religious beliefs I did not share, but it was NOT my place to contradict them) those untrue words are DIFFERENT than untruths told at other times or for other reasons. I guess I just think whether untrue words are good or bad depending a LOT on intent.
And I should clarify, just in case… I don’t think LESS of ANY man who does or can apologize. I was not intending that to come across as a judgment on ALL men. Not at all. I don’t even think less of MY Man if/when he apologizes – so it wasn’t even a generalized statement about Antonio, either. It was entirely situational. Antonio has apologized to me over things, in fact. He once made a personal remark in the heat of an argument, and after, when we were both discussing the situation he said that what he had done was beneath him, and he apologized. I thanked him for it, in that case. But in this case… Well, if you had asked me “Do you want him to apologize?” I probably would have said yes yes yes. But it was strange – the fact that he didn’t. And it’s effect on me was even stranger. At first, I didn’t even NOTICE he hadn’t apologized. He simply corrected the assumption I had had and he had let me have, explained himself, etc. And it was STRANGE, I admit, that I don’t need it. And that I don’t WANT it. And how cool it felt. I would never have guessed that would be my reaction. But then again I’m strange.
I guess I just don’t want to be asked IF he can have my forgiveness. Or IF he can have anything from me. That’s just… Not my place. Not where I WANT to be, either… If there was something I couldn’t get over? There wouldn’t be a point to asking for forgiveness anyway. We’d be done. If I can get over something, it will be because he explained himself, he listened to me, he discussed what happened and why, he expressed remorse, he expressed a desire not to do it again, he expressed the opinion that what he did was wrong, etc. But I won’t get over it simply because he had to beg my pardon for anything. In my relationship I’m just not in a position to grant him pardon on anything. That’s not where I stand, nor is it where I WANT to stand (where I want to be is the more important part of that, I think. If I hated where I stood and didn’t want to be there, then that would suck) In fact, it makes me wildly uncomfortable to think about.
But, anyway, to be clear I don’t see ANYTHING wrong with a man (or any person) apologizing. And I hope it didn’t come across that way. It might have, though. I’m a bit tired and frazzled at the moment.
And again, thank you.
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Chloe, I was not offended. And I agree, “lying” about a surprise party is not truly a lie. I think as partners we know that the other would expect to be told and not. Although, oddly enough, Grant can lie to others if he has to. It bothers him, but he can. If he tries to tell a ‘little white lie’ to me (a surprise) his face so subtlety changes and I can tell. He can’t pull it off. I am the exact same way with him. I am so glad for that. We both feel that everything in life, and certainly in our relationship has consequences. We chose not to have the ones that come along with not being trustworthy, and we know lying would create that for us.
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Our definitions of what a lie is differs from person to person.
Example; you have an elderly parent with dementia in a home. They have forgotten their beloved spouse has died a few months before. When you see them, they ask about their spouse. You say once again, as you have said many times now, “Mom, Dad died, don’t you remember?” Your mother starts to cry, devastated. For her, every time she hears it, it’s the very first time all over again. Finally you decide to simply say he’s away on a trip. This satisfies her and she has a good day on your visit.
Technically, you are lying. But to me, that is not a lie, that is a gift. (And that happened with my best friend’s mother, btw)
Similarly, when Dan found out via a work email he wasn’t supposed to see that the CEO was thinking of eliminating his position to cut back on expenses, he didn’t tell me right away. He didn’t want me to worry. He wanted to think about it and have a plan set up before he told me what he’d found out. This would be considered a lie of “omission”. But in this case, Dan wanted to protect me. Now, as it turned out, Dan brooded over the information over the next several days so much that I knew something was wrong and I became so distressed over it that it started to cause problems in our relationship. So he finally told me. And I was not angry, I understood why he had made the choice he had.
So for me it’s about motivation. A surprise party is a gift. Not telling an old women who is losing her mind that her husband is dead over and over again is a gift. Dan wanting to protect me from worry was a gift.
Playing pretend games with children is a gift.
The intent is pure.
True lies (to me) are when the one who withholds information or deliberately distorts the truth knows they are doing someone else harm by doing so. They cheated or they stole or they did something morally or legally wrong; they want to hide this, they don’t want anyone to know.
They lie trying to protect themselves, not someone else.
Those are lies to me. They are destructive and malicious and should not be compared to acting a role for fun or trying to protect a loved one from unnecessary pain.
If you and Antonino have decided to resolve this and put it behind you and move on, it’s nobody’s business but yours and his. Your relationship is up to you two to develop and mold, whatever the parameters are.
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My OMG THE END thing happened to be, “Yeah, I kidnapped a girl and held her for a few days while me and some mates had fun with her and then we shot her and left her for dead but she survived and we got caught and I spent quite a few years in jail.”
But I found that out AFTER I’d already left. Which, in hind-sight, was better to find out after I’d already left…maybe. (I’m still in two minds about it…)
Trust once broken is a very difficult thing to rebuild. I do get how Antonio not apologizing and stuff made it better for you though- it’s like if they’re going to be falliable, they’ve got to do it in a cool, domly way
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Chloe –
I’ve probably looked at this a half a dozen times, and pondered what I had to say about it and gone away to think some more…
I think this confluence of truth and honesty and trust is simultaneously more complex and simpler than most people would imagine. I believe that is even more true within relationships that are grounded in intimate power exchange.
I am one of those who lives inside a power dynamic that does implicitly (and sometimes explicitly) include the right for Master to lie if He chooses to do that — whenever and about anything. I am not saying that He DOES do that, but He surely could if He so chose.
There have been times when I’ve struggled with that reality; when I’ve worried about whether He was telling me the truth; when I’ve felt that He somehow owed me that “honesty” thing that everyone says is so crucial as the foundation for trust.
We have, most of us, a culturally instilled belief that honesty is important and valuable. Like so many other shared tenets of culture, the belief that honesty is a keystone of a good relationship is something that we acquire very early in our lives — well before we are old enough to consider the validity of that cultural norm with any sort of dispassionate eye.
As you indicate with your (brilliant) scale of escalating untruths, dishonesty is not one thing. There are some who would declare that a “lie is a lie,” and that all lies are effectively created equal, but I just don’t FEEL it that way. If you tell me that you are wearing blue socks when, in fact, you are wearing black socks — it is an untruth that does not come anywhere close to the level of seriousness that I’d attach to my banker telling me that I’d written checks that caused my account to become overdrawn when in fact he’d actually embezzled my funds.
I really believe that the perennial discussion about truth and honesty and trust is actually about what is it that would be a “deal breaker” for any one of us within these kinds of relationship. The power to insist that someone be absolutely transparently honest (in whatever way we define that) is a major bit of control that may be relinquished when entering into a power dynamic. Doing that may be a sign of “trust.” On the other hand, failing to do that most assuredly gives the nominally submissive partner a huge measure of leverage and power to define what is and is not acceptable behavior on the dominant side of things.
If I were trying to diagnose, I’d suggest that your sense of being HAPPY with Antonio’s admission without apology is a sign of your having reached a point in the relationship where you are willing to trust him enough to relinquish the “normal” social requirement for unfailing honesty. It isn’t all that hard to understand. Within our kind of relationship, we let go of all sorts of socially/culturally assumed requirements.
swan
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You know, I think it’s all very complex, and so many shades of gray..and yet not. There are the laws of physics..the way of the world and of the human mind, Lies, untruths, make the ground you stand on shaky…and shaky ground makes the relationship unstable. If he says it is night but it is day, or cold but it is warm, or yes but the truth is no, it erodes the shared reality. Your perceptions are intentionally different. There is manipulation without consent. Or perhaps you give consent to be deceived, but then, eventually, at some level, you will know, in the tiniest recesses of your mind that his reality may not be yours. You must draw you own conclusions of what is what, in the most serious or risky or dangerous places. That is survival. And then that will stand between you whether you choose to acknowledge that or not. You will need to second guess, to protect yourself. I wouldn’t want that in my relationship. Yes there are fine lines and grays, but there is also truth and untruth. Un truth erodes trust, stability, belief. My husband could, but does not assume the right to lie to me, nor would I accept that. Thus I don’t have to wonder IF he is lying to me…to be afraid in secret places. I am relieved of that insecurity. He gives me that out of love and respect for me..and he commits to that for US, because it makes a better stronger bond.
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As usual, Sara disagrees with me. No surprise. I think she makes my point, probably better than I did, however. She lives her life according to that EXACT set of social assumptions that tell us all that relationships MUST be grounded in absolute truth, and she uses her demand for that as a way to continue to maintain a measure of control in her relationship…
I give you her own words…
“Lies, untruths, make …the relationship unstable…erodes the shared reality…will stand between you…You will need to …protect yourself. I wouldn’t want that in my relationship…My husband could…does not assume the right to lie to me, nor would I accept that…He …commits to that for US”
Everyone, of course, should feel entitled to structure relationships that meet their needs. However, I am becoming tired of continually encountering Sara’s condescending and all-knowing tone whenever I comment here. She makes her relationship into what she wants it to be. That is just fine. That does not and should not make her the final arbiter on what is good and not good in relationship dynamics for everyone else.
swan
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Swan, I have no idea what your problem is with me. You don’t even know me, yet it is you who insist on pointing fingers, critisizing and judging me. I really think you need to direct your negativity and angst elsewhere. Chloe asked about how different people handle honesty in their realtionships. I said how and why. I just don’t feel it is appropriate to get into such nastiness, and especially on someone else’s blog, if for no other reason that out of resepct for her. Thus, I am choosing to end this discussion.
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…well sara, you DID say your way “makes a better and stronger bond”.
~ just sayin’…
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Well, honesty does make for a better and stronger bond. If I can trust you to be honest with me I am not questioning you, your motives or actions. Always wondering when the other shoe will drop.
I was married to a liar, a cheater. They start small, see what you will tolerate. If you have the deception kink and you play on that field help yourself. But that is not where you find security or longevity.
There is no cool way to lie to me.
P
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Swan and Sara…I know from talking to both of you that you both think the other one is out to get you. I also know that you both are hurt and puzzled by the other and thinks the other one started it.
Now, ladies…
How can that be?
Is it possible this started with a misunderstanding and grew from that?
You were once friends and you are both bright, caring, wise women. I even think you are drawn to each other. The sticking point seems to be that Sara is a proponent for monogamy and DD and Swan is a proponent for polygamy and M/s. I don’t think either of you mean to step on the other one’s toes when you express enthusiasm about your own beliefs. I think what happened is, because your core beliefs differ, it stings when you realize your beliefs clash at times.
I think this because I’ve done this myself and realizing it was a revelation for me.
I wish one of you would email the other and extend the olive branch. We are such a small group, we submissive or slave or DD or whatever term you want to use, women like us. So similar in our need to please our men at any cost. That is the true core, is it not? The rest is as nothing compared to that, right?
You’re both much more alike than not. We all are.
I mean, honestly, if you two don’t make up, I’ll have to start singing Kum-Bai-Ya or calling everyone “sisters” or some such shit and everyone will start throwing up. Now, *nobody* wants that! Fair warning, I’ll friggin’ do it, too! ;P
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I think Amber summed it up nicely…it’s the intent of harming by lying that is the “worst” kind of lie…
..hmmmmm
….I’m living a lie, kinda. Here I am, a ‘nilla, in love with and living with my beloved for 31 years. Two women, similar interests, long history together…and 4 kids.
…and I finally find the inner kink in me has an outlet…the kink community..sex toys…omg! opened my horizons and yet, this is nothing I could feel comfortable sharing with my 1000 % vanilla wife. You would say we’ve already broken so many molds, lesbians making a life together for so long, finally married 5 years ago when our state made it legal. But… we’ve been sex-less for 5.5 years, when our then youngest son came home to us as a preemie and started co sleeping with us…the sex stopped. Dead. I now have my own wee room, and new (hidden) sex toys to keep me happy, and blogs like this.
A HUGE lie of omission. Would it hurt her to know that I spend a few days a week reading blogs, writing my own kinkblog, while she’s at work? Dunno, but I would guess, New England Yankee that she is, yes. Would it destroy our relationship? I don’t think so , because I’ve not actually “cheated” and had sex with another person…that would be the end right there.
I try not to lie to my kids, coworkers, friends. But if one of them said to me, “hey did you like my carrot cake” and I could barely choke it down, you can be certain that I’d say I loved it! And I’d take the recipe too!
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Chloe, just wanted to say enjoyed your thoughts here and bravo for getting all these fascinating individuals musing on something that all of us think about. Swan, Alice, yourself (anyone else writing on this theme?) – honestly, I love that we can spark such thoughts in each other. I think I’m going to have to write my own thoughts too – unfortunately, I can only stand back and envy those of you who (as I said to Alice) can make the “leap to faith”
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