I remember being so confused when I was in high school and college because I was being subliminally (sometimes not-so) taught that women were better than men. Of course, I didn’t view it that way at the time. But now that I look back, I realize that’s what they were doing.

It was confusing because I had all these feelings inside me that I felt I had to hide. I instinctively expected men to protect me and I also looked to men for leadership naturally.

Yet, I was being told that was wrong of me.

Took me a long time to figure out why I was so conflicted.

Briefly, since I’m battling a three-day headache here, I guess it’s comparing going with a cultural norm to going against one. Therefore, it’s going to be somewhat artificial at times, and needing external force, as you put it. Simply because we, most of us I suspect, were not conditioned from birth to be submissive little women. We just weren’t. Society didn’t condition us, and neither did our parents. And even in families with very traditional roles and conditioning for their children, they have to fight societal influence tooth and nail to ingrain those values in their little girls. School will drive it right out. I chose to homeschool to help instill traditional values and cut down on societal influence (peer pressure) and it still wound its way into my kids’ lives.

Even me. I consider myself ‘born to serve’, in many ways, but it’s still an EFFORT to live subservient to a man or to men, because that is not the norm in our society.

Just my two cents I suppose. But, great piece!

@M:e – YAY! I’m so happy to see you here! Thank you, for your words and insight. Always.

@Kaya – I realize this has nothing to do with your comment, but OMG, BABY. *ahem* Okay, moving on. You know… I really fought, mentally, withing having to give up the title of slave. And as much as I try my hardest to understand and comply and come to peace with it… And as much as I see the brighter future, the deeper connection… I have to admit there is a part of me that wants it back. Right fucking now plzkthnx.

And.. He DOES read me very, very well. It’s a large part of the reason he is the perfect Man for me. I know I’ll never be led astray under his guidance. And… Some of the stuff you said in the using-me-as-an-example thing is making me think. What DID change? Just the titles? The relationship? Both? Hrm…

It’s probably demented of me to say “I agree!” with BOTH sides of your “I’m torn” discussion… but I do. Ah well, I never claimed, NOT EVEN ONCE, that I would make sense in here!

@Amber – OMG, thank you for sharing that! That was awesome. It’s easy to see myself in there, and to see overall themes that apply to lots of people as well. Dan’s right just like Antonio is right – this is something we are, something we were born to do. It’s funny how overthinking and… I don’t even know the word… over-something… can warp a born purpose. But it sure can. It’s a mark of being with the right person (I think) when even that sort of warping can be seen, fixed, and prevented.

@Ellen – HI! I love knowing I have lurkers. And I love it even more when they come to comment. I don’t look at my stats. I don’t know if 10 people or 100 people visit this blog. No idea. The only way I know if people are here is if they comment. (No pressure, though, swear!!!) So thank you for dropping by, and thank you for the ego boost. And you’re right – how awesome are the comments in my blog? I MIGHT be biased, but I think I have some of the best readers/commenters out there.

@G – Hi there, and welcome! I too HATE the snide comments between partners. Some people don’t understand how I could possibly hate that… Because I’m a snarky, snarky wench. I tease and I jab. I get teased and I get jabbed. I like to think I just understand the difference between saying “I love you enough to be comfortable enough to tease you, but with no malice!” and the remarks that are more like “I’m being a bitchy, angry, evil wench. And I’m not woman enough to just TALK to you about things that bother me, so I’ll try to cut you down about them, under the guise of being ‘funny’ and see if no one notices…” BLEH. Drives me up a wall. Thank you for the compliments, and the opportunity to muse about punishment. Which I may have to do in the near future…

Everyone, say a prayer to WordPress that it will let me comment individually again. And if it doesn’t, start calling it names, please.

That is why i hate the idea of punishment and rewards cos it feels like a game or like my actions are backed by my desire to recieve something and isnt well “holy”. I may get to the point where the incentive means more to me than my action. ( n it makes me feel like a child n i am into “age-play”.. lmao)

The norms of society is such in most places and the preeching of independence is prevalent even in asia (where i am !). It isnt easy to do certain stuff without eyebrows raising n a comment or two.

One of the things I cant stand is rudeness and snide remarks from partners to each other (expecially) in front of others. It is transparent no matter how offhandedly u put it. ( IT is usually the females who resort to this.. n geeze drives me nuts)

Oh, btw i love the way u write/ analyze/ bring us through ur thought process. Ty!

So originally Dan and I just were that, without naming it. Then we started using “sub” and “dom” to define ourselves formally and I read online about all these other people doing specific things to express those roles and I wanted that formal recognition too. I wanted him to show me he could dom me specifically like that too. So he did, because he enjoyed it and so did I and those little sexually thrilling shocks of “OMG! I’m doing this because he’s making me!” and “OMG! This is so hawt!” were addictive.

I wanted more. And more. So I acted out more and more and Dan responded by “subbing” me out more and more and it finally spun out of control.

This was in 2003. Suddenly it seemed we were working on this thing all the time, I wasn’t living up to expectations or *he* wasn’t living up to expectations and there were punishments and rewards for me and Dan felt like he had to stay on top of me all the time and what began as fun and fulfilling ended up just being frustrating. Whereas before it was just *there*, you know? It was what it was; I was submissive to him naturally because he was the male and there wasn’t any fuss about it.

We’ve pretty much gone back to that now. I behave however I want to behave unless he tells me otherwise and then I obey him. If he wants to do some slap-n-tickle, collar, leash, kinda thing, we do. If he doesn’t, we don’t. If he wants me to be the best friend, I am. The obedient wife, I do that too. Or if he wants to spoil the princess, hey, I’m on board. Whatever he wants, I strive to be.

Oh and this: “born and raised to know this is her place”

Heh. Dan often says to me if I forget myself, “know your place”. It’s a good reminder. I love it!

I’m happy to see you working out the reasons for, and finding the positives, in Antonio’s decisions. I don’t know if I’d do it quite as well if it were me. I like to think I would but– probably not.

There’s another girl I read who had a similar event take place, only she was the one who took off the slave label. I felt with her, and I feel with you, that as much as some of us find freedom and comfort in that label and everything that it means, others only need it as a stepping stone to something better, or else it weighs them down and holds them back. It’s been just as interesting and enlightening to watch her emerge from that slavery-cocoon as it has been to watch you.

As for the practice of submissives needing dominants to “maintain their place” (or blaming them for not), I’m rather torn on the issue myself.

Like you said, we are going against the cultural norm. Hence, for most, it IS a choice to be in this type of relationship and we made that choice for very specific reasons. If those reasons begin to fail.. then that choice becomes meaningless. So, on some level, I think there is an obligation on BOTH sides of the D/s slash, to respond to those reasons.

I’d even use you as an example. You both chose to enter into an M/s relationship for reasons specific only to you two. Those reasons became… what? Obsolete? Unhealthy? Unnecessary? At any rate, those reasons began to fail. It’s not a matter of pointing fingers and assigning blame, but simply a matter of having to adjust the relationship to meet the new reasons. The new needs.

But if you are unable to work out why Antonio has changed titles? If you continued to need slavery when he’s thrust you into submissiveness… do you think the relationship would work? If it were the other way around, if you felt stifled and confined within the boundaries of slavery and wanted out, but HE didn’t?

(Of course I think you WILL work because you are able to adjust yourself to all these changes. I think he reads you very, very well, and is willing and able to adjust *himself* as well.)

Anywho, so I get the motivation behind a submissive who is wailing about needing… something. Obviously there is a need not being met, a reason she entered this relationship that has, somehow, been ignored.

However.

Relying on someone else to BE your reason is a heavy, heavy weight to toss on their shoulders. As much as I believe there has to be a give and take in any relationship, a lot of the “But he’s not keeping me in my place! *whine*” that I see has less to do with working out a relationship and more to do with some misguided soul having made someone else the entirety of their world.

If the only time a person can find satisfaction in a D/s relationship is during active displays of dominance, then I’m thinking they are based more on kink and less on living. Which is fine if you can find someone else who also lives kink- but I don’t know many who can maintain that for the long term. There has to be enough satisfaction in just BEING- being dominant, being submissive, being together- to fill in the gaps between the active (and hella fun!) displays.

For me, initially, I became interested in this purely for the kink. I’m not submissive but I wanted to be made to submit. I was less concerned about his needs than about meeting my own. We took the hard road, or rather, I took the hard road because I’m stubborn like that. It’s only been through his intense patience and determination that I’ve found happiness in just being and accepting the kink as a perk of that being. Now, I’m practically an entirely different person than I used to be. Which, in some fucked up way, is exactly what I wanted. I wanted to be made to submit- and I am. Just not with whips and chains as I’d imagined, but because he’s somehow instilled within me the drive to do it for him.

Bastard.

Kidding.

Well.

I do believe I went off on some tangent or another. I don’t even know if anything I said had fuck-all to do with your entry anymore.lol

Oh well. It’s about time I returned the favor of using your place as my spot to babble right?

I do think our cultures can play a part in enhancing or stiffling our natural characters. Where our cultures now seem to be focussed on men and women having to be ‘equal’ I feel we’ve often lost as much as we’ve gained…..both sexes. I often say I’m an old fashioned girl…..at my happiest when the dynamic between us is in full flow and when you’d recognise it as the closer to the sort of relationship you’ve described here. The pressures of modern life mean we can all lose our mojo from time to time, or simply have to focus more of our attention than usual on things other than our partners, and I’ve often wondered if its really the lack of attention which is being written about when a submissive starts to fret about the ‘loss’ of her dominant’s dominant focus.

Anyway…..enough rambling….I just wanted to say I thoroughly enjoyed this posting.

love and hugs xxx