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	<title>Comments on: The Search for Survivors</title>
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		<title>By: Chloe</title>
		<link>http://obey.thenaturalorders.com/2009/02/06/the-search-for-survivors/comment-page-1/#comment-124</link>
		<dc:creator>Chloe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 20:40:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://obey.thenaturalorders.com/2009/02/06/the-search-for-survivors/#comment-124</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m framing your comment, btw.  You said I was CONCISE.  I don&#039;t think that&#039;s ever happened before.  Like, ever.

Thank you!  And thank you for a wonderful comment.  It&#039;s difficult to remove the theory of slavery from the reality of laws and the foundations of ethics.  It&#039;s a messy bit of conversation, but an interesting one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m framing your comment, btw.  You said I was CONCISE.  I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s ever happened before.  Like, ever.</p>
<p>Thank you!  And thank you for a wonderful comment.  It&#8217;s difficult to remove the theory of slavery from the reality of laws and the foundations of ethics.  It&#8217;s a messy bit of conversation, but an interesting one.</p>
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		<title>By: Chloe</title>
		<link>http://obey.thenaturalorders.com/2009/02/06/the-search-for-survivors/comment-page-1/#comment-123</link>
		<dc:creator>Chloe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 20:38:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://obey.thenaturalorders.com/2009/02/06/the-search-for-survivors/#comment-123</guid>
		<description>You know... I had this massive (and, for argument&#039;s sake, let&#039;s assume brilliant) idea when I read this the first time... Something about the learned behaviors. It&#039;s TOTALLY left my brain though.  Dammit.

Though, I say with conviction that I&#039;m sure your Master was simply giving himself a compliment when he was repeating that you are not easy to control.  &lt;strong&gt;*nods*&lt;/strong&gt;  He was... Uh... Saying how very capable he is because he can/does control you.  I&#039;m sure it was only mildly about you, really more about him... Mmhmm, yep.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know&#8230; I had this massive (and, for argument&#8217;s sake, let&#8217;s assume brilliant) idea when I read this the first time&#8230; Something about the learned behaviors. It&#8217;s TOTALLY left my brain though.  Dammit.</p>
<p>Though, I say with conviction that I&#8217;m sure your Master was simply giving himself a compliment when he was repeating that you are not easy to control.  <strong>*nods*</strong>  He was&#8230; Uh&#8230; Saying how very capable he is because he can/does control you.  I&#8217;m sure it was only mildly about you, really more about him&#8230; Mmhmm, yep.</p>
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		<title>By: Chloe</title>
		<link>http://obey.thenaturalorders.com/2009/02/06/the-search-for-survivors/comment-page-1/#comment-122</link>
		<dc:creator>Chloe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 20:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://obey.thenaturalorders.com/2009/02/06/the-search-for-survivors/#comment-122</guid>
		<description>You saying &quot;I didn&#039;t need him to heal me&quot; reminded me (though it may be wildly off-topic)... I caught myself thinking today, that almost every good thing I do stems from inside me...  No matter how owned or loved I am, no matter how slave-like I feel, I have to plant my own seeds of change.  If I&#039;m bent on being self-destructive, there is little Antonio can do to &quot;force&quot; a better mentality on me... But serving him, and letting him guide me?  That&#039;s how my little seeds of change are nurtured, fed, and allowed to grow.  I mean, sometimes he can alter my perceptions and thoughts and motivations, but it&#039;s not through brute force.  He just... Gets in my head.  And sometimes I think I&#039;m just a passive vessel, but usually I know I really am involved, responsible, and it IS on my shoulders to take a hand in correcting myself.  It&#039;s an interesting little joint effort we&#039;ve got going on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You saying &#8220;I didn&#8217;t need him to heal me&#8221; reminded me (though it may be wildly off-topic)&#8230; I caught myself thinking today, that almost every good thing I do stems from inside me&#8230;  No matter how owned or loved I am, no matter how slave-like I feel, I have to plant my own seeds of change.  If I&#8217;m bent on being self-destructive, there is little Antonio can do to &#8220;force&#8221; a better mentality on me&#8230; But serving him, and letting him guide me?  That&#8217;s how my little seeds of change are nurtured, fed, and allowed to grow.  I mean, sometimes he can alter my perceptions and thoughts and motivations, but it&#8217;s not through brute force.  He just&#8230; Gets in my head.  And sometimes I think I&#8217;m just a passive vessel, but usually I know I really am involved, responsible, and it IS on my shoulders to take a hand in correcting myself.  It&#8217;s an interesting little joint effort we&#8217;ve got going on.</p>
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		<title>By: M:e</title>
		<link>http://obey.thenaturalorders.com/2009/02/06/the-search-for-survivors/comment-page-1/#comment-119</link>
		<dc:creator>M:e</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 08:07:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://obey.thenaturalorders.com/2009/02/06/the-search-for-survivors/#comment-119</guid>
		<description>First....great posting, and great debate in the comments.  There will always be so many ways of looking at this and its inevitable I think that we all do so from the frame of reference of our own personal pictures.  

For me, your line, &#039;looking to walk the long, and potentially very rewarding road of healing and turning her patterns into rewarding service&#039; struck deeply.  Neither M or I were looking for that when we entered into our relationship, we came to that road together about a year in and naturally, and its been, I believe, beneficial in taking both his dominance and my submission to a level we couldn&#039;t have imagined it could when we first met.  For that, I will always be most grateful.  I learned I didn&#039;t need him to heal me, I just needed him to be the strong foundation to allow me to do my own work.  Making my past negative responses and patterns part of my service to him has very much been a part of that.

love and hugs xxx</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First&#8230;.great posting, and great debate in the comments.  There will always be so many ways of looking at this and its inevitable I think that we all do so from the frame of reference of our own personal pictures.  </p>
<p>For me, your line, &#8216;looking to walk the long, and potentially very rewarding road of healing and turning her patterns into rewarding service&#8217; struck deeply.  Neither M or I were looking for that when we entered into our relationship, we came to that road together about a year in and naturally, and its been, I believe, beneficial in taking both his dominance and my submission to a level we couldn&#8217;t have imagined it could when we first met.  For that, I will always be most grateful.  I learned I didn&#8217;t need him to heal me, I just needed him to be the strong foundation to allow me to do my own work.  Making my past negative responses and patterns part of my service to him has very much been a part of that.</p>
<p>love and hugs xxx</p>
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		<title>By: Chloe</title>
		<link>http://obey.thenaturalorders.com/2009/02/06/the-search-for-survivors/comment-page-1/#comment-116</link>
		<dc:creator>Chloe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Feb 2009 20:20:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://obey.thenaturalorders.com/2009/02/06/the-search-for-survivors/#comment-116</guid>
		<description>Thank you, Coyote&#039;s Kitten!  Commenting in kaya&#039;s blog is like... Well, I should pay for the privilege, I think.  It&#039;s practically like advertising... :D  

Glad I made you smile.  Knowing that made ME smile!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Coyote&#8217;s Kitten!  Commenting in kaya&#8217;s blog is like&#8230; Well, I should pay for the privilege, I think.  It&#8217;s practically like advertising&#8230; <img src='http://obey.thenaturalorders.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' />   </p>
<p>Glad I made you smile.  Knowing that made ME smile!</p>
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		<title>By: Coyote's Kitten</title>
		<link>http://obey.thenaturalorders.com/2009/02/06/the-search-for-survivors/comment-page-1/#comment-114</link>
		<dc:creator>Coyote's Kitten</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Feb 2009 07:10:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://obey.thenaturalorders.com/2009/02/06/the-search-for-survivors/#comment-114</guid>
		<description>Hello! I found your site through a comment on Kaya&#039;s blog. I just wanted to say that I&#039;m glad that I stumbled across it! In the few posts that I&#039;ve read so far I couldn&#039;t help but smile. I love the way you write.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello! I found your site through a comment on Kaya&#8217;s blog. I just wanted to say that I&#8217;m glad that I stumbled across it! In the few posts that I&#8217;ve read so far I couldn&#8217;t help but smile. I love the way you write.</p>
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		<title>By: kaya</title>
		<link>http://obey.thenaturalorders.com/2009/02/06/the-search-for-survivors/comment-page-1/#comment-113</link>
		<dc:creator>kaya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Feb 2009 12:41:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://obey.thenaturalorders.com/2009/02/06/the-search-for-survivors/#comment-113</guid>
		<description>Puppy - that is true. I am cared for and naturally my thoughts on it are skewed in that direction. It&#039;s hard (for me anyway) to come at something and not pull only from my own experiences. But since I recognize that about myself, I don&#039;t consider myself a &quot;voice of authority&quot; on anything. Good thing, eh? Could you imagine the world I&#039;d create if I could?? Heh.

Chloe - I just wanted to address what you said about &quot;learned&quot; skills real quick. Learned is most certainly not the best word, but I&#039;m not sure what is, to be honest. 

I don&#039;t know that anyone can dispute the evidence of the lingering effects of child abuse on adults - and if not abuse to the child itself in it&#039;s classic definition, then the abuse perhaps, of power. From the cycle of abuse (abused children often grow up to be abusers) to co-dependency issues (a child of an alcoholic is more likely to marry, and put up with, an alcoholic spouse). 

There is an ease of acceptance that happens to these adult children - whether that makes it a learned event or whatever, it can&#039;t be denied. There are always exceptions to the rule, of course. Some children of alcoholics grow up to be teetotalers, won&#039;t have anything to do with anyone else who drinks (and in some ways, isn&#039;t that also an almost unhealthy response to childhood &quot;trauma&quot;? especially if they can&#039;t separate appropriate drinkers from alcoholics?) 

It&#039;s that easy acceptance that I mean when I say &quot;learned in childhood&quot;. Just as not all children of alcoholics become alcoholics or marry alcoholics, and not all alcoholics have a childhood history surrounded by alcohol, there is enough of a connection to childhood experiences that counselors and researchers look for it. 

So, I absolutely do believe that someone like you and I who have a history of abuse and have grown up to be interested in the various aspects of bdsm have, in some manner, been easier to dom specifically because we already possess that &quot;ease of acceptance&quot;. 

Now, as I was discussing this with Master, he kept pointing to me &quot;but cunt, you are NOT easy to control.&quot; (like, he kept repeating that. A lot. Do you think he was trying to tell me something? teehee) and so we had to discuss the difference between domming and controlling. I am not easy to control. I freely admit that. (well I am NOW, easiER anyway) But even he had to admit there are things that were just easier to do, easier for me to accept (in comparison to his past D/s relationships) because I was already comfortable with them, already felt love by alternative methods. 

So.. yeah. Totally lost my train of thought there. Ummmm.. I guess that&#039;s my cue to stfu, huh? lol. 

:-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Puppy &#8211; that is true. I am cared for and naturally my thoughts on it are skewed in that direction. It&#8217;s hard (for me anyway) to come at something and not pull only from my own experiences. But since I recognize that about myself, I don&#8217;t consider myself a &#8220;voice of authority&#8221; on anything. Good thing, eh? Could you imagine the world I&#8217;d create if I could?? Heh.</p>
<p>Chloe &#8211; I just wanted to address what you said about &#8220;learned&#8221; skills real quick. Learned is most certainly not the best word, but I&#8217;m not sure what is, to be honest. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know that anyone can dispute the evidence of the lingering effects of child abuse on adults &#8211; and if not abuse to the child itself in it&#8217;s classic definition, then the abuse perhaps, of power. From the cycle of abuse (abused children often grow up to be abusers) to co-dependency issues (a child of an alcoholic is more likely to marry, and put up with, an alcoholic spouse). </p>
<p>There is an ease of acceptance that happens to these adult children &#8211; whether that makes it a learned event or whatever, it can&#8217;t be denied. There are always exceptions to the rule, of course. Some children of alcoholics grow up to be teetotalers, won&#8217;t have anything to do with anyone else who drinks (and in some ways, isn&#8217;t that also an almost unhealthy response to childhood &#8220;trauma&#8221;? especially if they can&#8217;t separate appropriate drinkers from alcoholics?) </p>
<p>It&#8217;s that easy acceptance that I mean when I say &#8220;learned in childhood&#8221;. Just as not all children of alcoholics become alcoholics or marry alcoholics, and not all alcoholics have a childhood history surrounded by alcohol, there is enough of a connection to childhood experiences that counselors and researchers look for it. </p>
<p>So, I absolutely do believe that someone like you and I who have a history of abuse and have grown up to be interested in the various aspects of bdsm have, in some manner, been easier to dom specifically because we already possess that &#8220;ease of acceptance&#8221;. </p>
<p>Now, as I was discussing this with Master, he kept pointing to me &#8220;but cunt, you are NOT easy to control.&#8221; (like, he kept repeating that. A lot. Do you think he was trying to tell me something? teehee) and so we had to discuss the difference between domming and controlling. I am not easy to control. I freely admit that. (well I am NOW, easiER anyway) But even he had to admit there are things that were just easier to do, easier for me to accept (in comparison to his past D/s relationships) because I was already comfortable with them, already felt love by alternative methods. </p>
<p>So.. yeah. Totally lost my train of thought there. Ummmm.. I guess that&#8217;s my cue to stfu, huh? lol. </p>
<p> <img src='http://obey.thenaturalorders.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: puppy</title>
		<link>http://obey.thenaturalorders.com/2009/02/06/the-search-for-survivors/comment-page-1/#comment-109</link>
		<dc:creator>puppy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Feb 2009 21:26:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://obey.thenaturalorders.com/2009/02/06/the-search-for-survivors/#comment-109</guid>
		<description>I really liked your analogy.  Such a great parallel!  I thought you were very concise for a topic with a lot of depth.

kaya, I understand your position that Doms aren&#039;t required to be altruistic--or even be interested in human rights like people expect employers to be.  Well, no one expects employers to be altruistic actually but they are required by law to honor human rights and human rights watch do groups will red flag bad employers to the government.  

But that kinda happens with relationship abuse too.  It&#039;s not going to be monitored so easily but human rights are human rights.  They are not *inherent* but a choice that our government has decided to make part of the constitution.  I think that is why consent and choice are so essential in BDSM-related experiences.  I think it is hard to show consent when you have Doms seeking out weaker women (and anyone seeking abused women is seeking out someone who has been emotionally and psychologically injured).

That is just my opinion but your opinion is coming from a place where you are cared for and know it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really liked your analogy.  Such a great parallel!  I thought you were very concise for a topic with a lot of depth.</p>
<p>kaya, I understand your position that Doms aren&#8217;t required to be altruistic&#8211;or even be interested in human rights like people expect employers to be.  Well, no one expects employers to be altruistic actually but they are required by law to honor human rights and human rights watch do groups will red flag bad employers to the government.  </p>
<p>But that kinda happens with relationship abuse too.  It&#8217;s not going to be monitored so easily but human rights are human rights.  They are not *inherent* but a choice that our government has decided to make part of the constitution.  I think that is why consent and choice are so essential in BDSM-related experiences.  I think it is hard to show consent when you have Doms seeking out weaker women (and anyone seeking abused women is seeking out someone who has been emotionally and psychologically injured).</p>
<p>That is just my opinion but your opinion is coming from a place where you are cared for and know it.</p>
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		<title>By: Chloe</title>
		<link>http://obey.thenaturalorders.com/2009/02/06/the-search-for-survivors/comment-page-1/#comment-108</link>
		<dc:creator>Chloe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Feb 2009 17:33:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://obey.thenaturalorders.com/2009/02/06/the-search-for-survivors/#comment-108</guid>
		<description>Your gravatar is a bum!  Awesome!

Thank you for sharing that about yourself, really.  And, well put.  I too got the &quot;moron&quot; impression from him.  Sometimes, I think my education in psychology leads me to make things overcomplicated.  (And by &quot;I think&quot; I mean &quot;Antonio tells me&quot; but, yanno.)  But sometimes I think not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your gravatar is a bum!  Awesome!</p>
<p>Thank you for sharing that about yourself, really.  And, well put.  I too got the &#8220;moron&#8221; impression from him.  Sometimes, I think my education in psychology leads me to make things overcomplicated.  (And by &#8220;I think&#8221; I mean &#8220;Antonio tells me&#8221; but, yanno.)  But sometimes I think not.</p>
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		<title>By: Sunnilady</title>
		<link>http://obey.thenaturalorders.com/2009/02/06/the-search-for-survivors/comment-page-1/#comment-107</link>
		<dc:creator>Sunnilady</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Feb 2009 15:41:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://obey.thenaturalorders.com/2009/02/06/the-search-for-survivors/#comment-107</guid>
		<description>I am a masochist with childhood abuse (molestation) and was raped as an adult by someone with authority over me. I have PTSD and are they all connected? yes in a way but I was a masochist before the childhood abuse and rape. I have had therapy and sorted out the differences.  Triggers that come from the PTSD are completely different then the things that are connected to my sexual relationships. At this point in my life I can seperate those.  Perhaps this Dom doesn&#039;t understand the different or how to proceed in Dominating someone who has these issues.  

For instance - triggers for my PTSD include pillows over my head or a hood.  I can be tied down by rope and that turns me on but a hood or suffocating is a trigger to the rape. 

You can&#039;t work through that without serious risk of injury to the psyche and usually a partner who you haven&#039;t been with for years who understands it cant help you either.

They can work around those issues but in order to do that they have to know the entire story and what the triggers are.

This man is foolish to think he can figure it out with a online forum or private message - he is not a smart Dom and yes, like I said on Kayay&#039;s site LAZY - emotionally LAZY.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a masochist with childhood abuse (molestation) and was raped as an adult by someone with authority over me. I have PTSD and are they all connected? yes in a way but I was a masochist before the childhood abuse and rape. I have had therapy and sorted out the differences.  Triggers that come from the PTSD are completely different then the things that are connected to my sexual relationships. At this point in my life I can seperate those.  Perhaps this Dom doesn&#8217;t understand the different or how to proceed in Dominating someone who has these issues.  </p>
<p>For instance &#8211; triggers for my PTSD include pillows over my head or a hood.  I can be tied down by rope and that turns me on but a hood or suffocating is a trigger to the rape. </p>
<p>You can&#8217;t work through that without serious risk of injury to the psyche and usually a partner who you haven&#8217;t been with for years who understands it cant help you either.</p>
<p>They can work around those issues but in order to do that they have to know the entire story and what the triggers are.</p>
<p>This man is foolish to think he can figure it out with a online forum or private message &#8211; he is not a smart Dom and yes, like I said on Kayay&#8217;s site LAZY &#8211; emotionally LAZY.</p>
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