The last thing I figured I’d do is get into any kind of religious discussion. But I can’t seem to help myself. This may be taken the wrong way by some, or may give people the wrong impression about my beliefs. If you’ve got questions – just ask.
A while back, I was reading Behind The Collar (incidentally, great blog)… And this blog was mentioned. So I moseyed on over. And saw posts like this.
I’m really… Quite confused.
I am a Christian… I guess? I was baptized an Episcopalian (that’s like Catholic Light – all the religion, half the guilt.) I celebrate the Christian holidays, so if asked to identify with a religion – Christianity is it. And, while it has nothing to do with religion, I do want to lead a good life.
But the only way I feel I can lead a truly good life in this world is by being intelligent and intuitive. And, were I deeply religious, that would mean with the Bible too – I could not take it literally without thinking of myself as ignorant.
I long ago decided that if George Orwell can write a book that speaks on two levels, and the one we need to listen to, in order to understand fully and gain the TRUE insight, is the deeper, non-literal level… Then I’m pretty comfortable thinking if there is an all-powerful deity, it can too. To me, taking the Bible literally is like thinking Animal Farm is JUST a story about animals on a farm. It’s the route of the simplest-minded of all humans, the blind ones destined to get things wrong… All of this is in my opinion, of course.
So… Reading that one post I linked to… Well, yikes. I guess this post of mine is more addressed to the writers of that blog, even if they’ll never see it… Or to anyone who is religious, actually. I’m CURIOUS.
If you’re taking the Bible literally in those instances, how do you reconcile with some of the OTHER rules in the Bible? I mean, I understand wanting to use some of them to say “God says this is not okay!” but do you follow all of them? What about Leviticus 19:19 (no mixing of fibers). Or Leviticus 15:19-20 (women, and everything they touch during their menstrual cycle are unclean) or (and I can’t remember what passage it is exactly) the idea that people should be stoned to death over concepts like astrology. And… Do all husbands HAVE to grow a beard or suffer being immoral?
Do you consider yourself any more or less moral for WHICH rules you follow? Who decided it was okay to ignore the Bible and to mix fibers, but NOT okay to sleep with someone of the same sex? Who made that judgment call? You? Your priest/reverend/minister? If you made that judgment call, or ANY other HUMAN made it, doesn’t it inherently carry the potential for flaws? Isn’t that what humanity is all about? Humans are not perfect creatures. So doesn’t it mean ANYONE else should be able to make that judgment call about which rules actually matter, in a direction opposite to your own, without persecution and with the full love of God, just as you think you are receiving? What human can make those calls and think "I’m more right than HE is"?
I don’t know… I have had to find my own path to interpret the right way to lead a good, moral life. And for me, taking a book that was transcribed and edited by humans literally is just not the way – it leads me down a path of confusion, bigotry, hate, segregation, and unfounded boastful pride.
I guess some would try to strip me of my baptism, say I am not truly Christian, but I know if I face a day of judgment, I will have a clean soul. I will have worked to find the glistening divine threads in life, threads that are so badly faded by the need and greed for power that fueled the humans who wrote, edited, selected and spread the word of their God…
I guess I just try to have faith that IF there is a divine afterlife waiting for me (and I am not secure enough in my intelligence to assert there is OR that there isn’t) my efforts to dig deeper and to not be dull-minded will be rewarded.
But it doesn’t stop me from being curious how other people do it… How they take some of the Bible literally, and some of it not, and then… Act as if their judgment of what is and isn’t included in morality is the final word and somehow defines a good Christian path.
I don’t get it. You say that homosexuality is wrong, no matter what, ever, no, omg, no. Bible says so, so NO. But then, from this post… “The Bible does say to watch your language, but I think God understands I’m just doing it in the bedroom for a thrill.”
You “think God understands”? So, what if I think God “understands” that love is a beautiful thing, and it is not to be condemned among consenting adults, regardless of gender? Based on your logic, is that fine then? Yes, I guess it is.
Holy hell, I just solved the religious vs. gay issue! GOOOOOO ME! (Sarcasm optional.)
I think this came off a LOT harsher than I meant it. I think it’s actually a cool blog, I really do… But it can be hard for me to swallow personally-abbreviated morality (even if I agree wholeheartedly with some of it. And I do! I am (personally) firmly against things like bestiality, obviously.)
So, if you’re religious – how do you do it? How do you pick and choose what rules to follow, which ones are worthy of your condemnation and which ones are just an "oops, I cursed!" or "oops, I wasn’t entirely honest with someone!" but no big deal and not worthy of your condemnation? Also, how do you do that and then summon the incredible sense of superiority necessary to think someone who decides differently from you is somehow damned?
OK. I’ll play.
I’m not a “believer,” so maybe what I think about this is not germane. I was raised Catholic; Catholic school and the whole business. As an adult, I banged around to a lot of different churches trying to figure out what there was out there that might make some sort of sense. Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Baptists, UCC, Mormons… I was all over the place. I settled, for a long time, with the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers). It was pretty good, but not perfect. I have also studied with a Lakota Sioux teacher and spent some time looking into wicca. I’m a seeker I suppose.
Today, I’d say there isn’t really much I believe in. I suspect that there is some sort of creative divine energy in the universe, and that we are linked to that power in very real ways. Some of us are more aware than others of that connection.
As to that how do people DO it when it comes to believing in the literal word of the Bible, or the mythology of Christianity, that, in my opinion, requires a willingness to simply not exercise the mental capacity with which we are endowed. If a person has any sort of logical thoughts, and reasonable intelligence, then the religious story-telling of modern religious thought is just out of the realm of believability. To choose to invest in it is about not thinking.
swan
Reply
Chloe Reply:
February 3rd, 2009 at 1:08 pm
Excellent point, swan. I guess it might be a bit of an exercise in futility to ask someone about the logic behind something they don’t apply logic to in general. Some of the things done in the name of religion just terrify me, and I become, at times, desperate for an explanation. I guess I feel like I don’t have a way to counter or fight some of that hatred without understanding where it gets its “proof” in their eyes. As my mother is fond of saying, about many situations: “There is the world of sane, and the world of crazy. And you can try talking all you want, but if you’re standing in the world of sane, none of your rules of logic are going to be the same as those in the world of crazy. The bounds of logic only works if both parties agree to work within them.” Maybe that’s just the way it is. Gah.
Reply
Nice post Chloe!
I’ll have to go along with swan.
I was brought up catholic until my parents marriage almost ended in divorce when I was around age 10. Some friends of friends of theirs took them to a bible study and they were “saved”. From then on, I found myself being dragged to this baptist church on wednesday nights, and twice on sunday.
By the time I got older, I was done with their hypocrisy and went on the great seach, much like swan. I studied different religions beginning with those bible-based religions that desperately fought with each other over interpretation of the bible.
Finally, I threw my hands up because I could not logically find one “true” faith. And the one that supposedly would speak to my heart, because if you seek, you shall find, (christianity) well, no one was answering me; divine or otherwise. I soon grew tired of asking for a divine answer.
I agree that those who would pick and choose from the bible; they are more self-serving than godly. Just my opinion. And the ones that are really good people are the first to admit they don’t know everything, even when their bibles are well-worn.
Enough rambling, hell, this isn’t my blog!
lol.
dk
Reply
Chloe Reply:
February 3rd, 2009 at 1:16 pm
I like that, dk… “More self-serving than godly.” That makes a lot of sense to me.
I guess I’m engaged in an inactive search for the divine, and one that has sort of lost its meaning. I feel incredibly fulfilled now, without a massive devotion to a religion. Is that wrong or short-sighted? I don’t know. I do know that there are levels of religious devotion that I am simply not willing to commit to. I have pretty big devotional commitments as it is.
Reply
I found your site by a terribly circuitous route (and I think that for the most part I’d be counted among the vanilla, more’s the pity) but I must say that I love what you have to say and the way you say it. This is just a quick comment to let you know that I’ll be lurking. But in a totally friendly way. I save the creepy stuff for later. ~.^
Reply
Chloe Reply:
February 3rd, 2009 at 1:25 pm
Yay! Welcome, LurbyJo! I’m stoked to have you lurking. (And I’m curious about the circuitous route!)
Thank you, sincerely, for the comment. I’m flattered when anyone wants to listen to me talk.
Bring on the creepy, btw. *smiles*
Reply
I think it also makes good Christians uncomfortable to remember that in God’s eyes a sin is a sin is a sin. (No way – murder is much worse than telling a lie – well no, not in God’s eyes – not if you’ve actually read and studied the Bible.)
These are the same people who find it good to have a death penalty but bad to have an abortion.
I could go all “George Carlin” on this topic – sarcasm NOT optional, lol, but I’ll stop.
Picking and choosing which parts you like and which parts you don’t does not represent the spiritual world well. Deciding upon your idea, and then searching out a scripture to prove it is called proof-texting, and is how the Bible gets quoted out of context. But dang me if I know a way to get the fundamentalist types to understand.
Isn’t it supremely easier if they would simply live and let live? If they could understand that they are actually only responsible for themselves, and to just leave me alone, we’d all be so much happier. Even them.
Peace
Tapestry
Reply
Chloe Reply:
February 3rd, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Yeah, you’re right… I suppose I don’t have any problem with what I view as warped and abused logic in others, so long as they don’t attack others with it. If they embraced live and let live? I wouldn’t really mind what they thought. But the fact that they try to recruit others, they condemn, harm, and slander those they don’t agree with, and they promote cruel legislation makes me want to scream.
I guess I’m failing at leading by example, because I’m promoting my own agenda. Heh…
Reply
Geez, Chloe. I read your posts as soon as they come up in my reader, always *intending* to comment. But dammit, girl, commenting on your posts is never as easy as saying “OOH, ME TOO”. And as you know, that’s pretty much all I got right now.
Ok… here’s my take. I consider myself a Christian, for much the same reasons you do. Raised in the faith, etc. Extended family born again Christians. Do I believe in God? Yes. I consider myself a Christian spiritually – but I have yet to find an organized religion that agrees with me. And I’m good with that. I have my faith and my beliefs, and that’s all I can handle. I tend to view things through my own eyes, so have a hard time swallowing others “interpretations” – because they’re just as freaking human as I am. And I’m with you on the whole “edited by humans” deal. So I guess… I take the basics, the do unto others, the morals, the trying to live right. And the legalities and logistics? I’ll let the televangelists fight it out with each other from their mansions and private jets they’ve bought with money given to “help others” by people who are barely surviving themselves. My spirituality is my own – I’ve given up on the religion part of it.
And I’ve seen that site/blog before – I find some of their articles informative from an A, B, C aspect – but can’t follow their “this is ok, that isn’t ok” train of thought.
*hugs*
lalana
Reply
Ok I will play, yea a little late in the game but I will still play. I did not read the other replies so I may be disqualified from the game
Here goes..
What your original post referred to was the Old Testament and from my beliefs the New Testament comes into play. Once Jesus came to earth and sacrificed it was so that our sins were to be forgiven. The Old Testament did prove that we are all human and there was no way possible we could follow those rules so we are all guilty of sin. Now we are all still guilty of sin, no one human is sin free, and Christ died to pay for our sins. That is why we ask for forgiveness so that we may be free from the “guilt” associated with the sin and receive a fresh slate so to speak.
I am not a judgmental person at all. If I am asked my opinion I do provide scripture when necessary. I would never tell anyone that what they are doing is wrong, do not judge or you will be judged, I simply guide them (per their request) on where the scripture can be found.
How does this work with the lifestyle and religion together? Well I am struggling with that myself and that is how I stumbled across this post. I wish I had the answers on how to have these two work together but I will continue my search and come to my conclusion of what I need to do.
Reply