http://findingsara.wordpress.com/2009/02/08/further-thoughts-on-slaves-and-submissives/

Thanks for being willing to have this discussion! Sara

But it’s the third party situations I worry about. I admit, I’m really ignorant about the legality of the play… I mean, what we do is assault in many other situations, but, like I said, not ALL. Such as boxing. And I think you’re totally right, that of course some of the things we do are VERY illegal without consent… I guess the part that gives me pause… (And I’m SURE someone somewhere has answered this and I’m just being a dolt for not looking it up.) Is what happens if I get whipped or beat and then, SOMETHING happens. It could be totally unrelated. My appendix bursts. I trip and break my ankle… Something. And I end up in the hospital. Is what my Master did to me earlier really legal? Can I say “Yup, I asked for it,” and it’s fine? I assume, at the least, there’d be hoops to jump through, they may call a social worker without even bothering to ask me or talk to me about it first… They may not believe me when I say “I wanted it.”

But would we just encounter the hassle of trying to explain? Or is there no explanation good enough – IS there some legal recourse doctors, nurses, or other mandated reporters might feel compelled to explore? I think I need to google this later.

Antonio says I worry too much. I have NO idea what he’s talking about.

The intoxicated slave – I guess while being unable to give informed consent in that moment could be a problem, if we’ve given our Sirs our consent to control us in all ways previously, then wouldn’t it carry over into the drunken state? I’m not sure, I guess it’s just my take on the matter. Now for folks not involved in a power exchange type of relationship, I’m not sure the same level of agreement is present, so perhaps it follows that it’s not as legal as I believe our situation would be. Very good question Chloe.

Now about the boxing…
I guess I was really thinking just in terms of play between adults. Think of 2 adults choosing to engage in a sexual experience, and 1 of them suddenly starts whaling on the other – without the permission of the other person. The 2nd person did not consent to be whaled upon – therefore it is most definitely not OK, and person 1 could even end up facing criminal charges.

This is markedly different than a consensual power exchange relationship. Boxing is certainly consensual as well, therefore it is legal.

Wow – awesome questions.
You rock!
huggggg
Tapestry

Are you not just in a relationship in which you are more submissive than I am in mine?

That gave me pause.

I’m sure there are those that would completely agree with you and say this difference in nomenclature is really a difference of degree of submission, and nothing more. I’m also sure there are others who would say slavery is a totally different kind of relationship and that slave and submissive are not just two points in a vast gray scale of levels of submission, and are in fact two very different definitions for a partner in a relationship. And in either case? They can both be totally right, if that suits their needs for the definitions, you know?

But my personal short answer to this question? (Which might not have been what you were getting at, but interested me to think about!) I realized I have no idea if I am more submissive than you are…

For one thing, I feel uncomfortable making judgments about “degrees” of submission. Even if your limits, duties, etc. seem “less” submissive than mine, I’m not going to assume I know what it takes you, emotionally, to submit to them. I can’t pretend to know what your partner wants/requires, and how well you are meeting those wants and needs.

Should degrees of submission be decided by how satisfied the dominant partner is? How many routines you have? How much pain you can take or how many loads of laundry you can clean and dry and fold perfectly every week? How subservient the submissive partner feels? The sacrifice or degree of difficulty of the tasks?

I have no idea! So that lends support to the idea that perhaps this is not a difference of “degree” because we’d have to have an actual scale established to measure that… And it’s not a difference of kind of relationship either, not necessarily… It’s really just a difference in terminology that means something to me and my Master. And how you and your partner choose to define your relationship is with whatever terms mean the most to you.. What it means to anyone else can be interesting… But is ultimately empty information, unless it helps you understand and define your own relationship on a deeper level.

I really loved your question and your comments – you’ve given me a lot to think about and I’m always grateful for that.

I have been here 3 times now and still need to mull things over a bit more before I have anything much worth saying, except that I do appreciate your explanation! And no, of course I was not asking for justification, rather trying to see your perspective, to better understand! Kind of an obsession of mine! I’ll be back….

Sara

This morning, after a reread, I agree that you did a fine job answering a most difficult, yet common question.

I agree that the term slave implies the state of being owned. Works for me!

Very nice post.

Consent is definitely a big issue… I actually had a bit more written and didn’t post it, but it went into the ideas of consent and limits and consequences of choosing to end service, for the consenting and non-consenting. (Because I do think it’s within the elemental nature of humanity that even non-consenting slaves, “slave” in its historical use, can choose to end their service. Every breath we take is a choice, in a sense. But consent means their consequences are vastly different from mine. Namely, death (of themselves or their families) or the high probability of death upon capture.)

And… Is that true about the legality, btw? I admit, I am not up on the legal issues surrounding of a lot of this… But even if I ask for it, is it still completely legal for these things to occur? I mean, I was under the impression for certain things… Say, just say I’m drunk. Even if I beg and whine and throw myself at Antonio – technically isn’t that still rape? Aren’t I “incapable” of giving informed consent while intoxicated? So, while I personally feel he has my consent, legally, he might not have?

And the other actions, is it legal to beat someone up if they ask for it? Like… Boxing is legal?

(I’m hopelessly ignorant about this stuff.)

~Chloe