I got a comment from Sara of Finding Sara the other day that I wanted to answer… But I found I’d probably have way too much to say for just a comment reply. (Oh, I know, I was shocked too. I’m usually the epitome of brevity.)
Writing this post made me think. A lot. So thank you, Sara.
Hi Chloe, I have a question for you. I have for some time been trying to understand why some people choose the term “slave” to describe themselves. What it connotes to them that is different than “Submissive”. How can you be “owned” when at the end of the day, the power to submit (or not) is yours? Yes, your Master respects your limits, but if he did not…then you would change things. You agree that it IS in your power to do so. My connotation of slave was someone who was owned and had no say, no limits of their own, could be even killed if their owner decided to do so. The slaves of the south 100 years ago and the slaves in Roman times, etc…they were truly slaves. Are you not just in a relationship in which you are more submissive than I am in mine? So why call yourself slave then? I am not trying to challenge you here, but really just trying to understand. I had some of this discussion with swan sometime ago…and your post reminds me that my knowledge and understanding is still lacking. Thanks, Sara
I am going to go out on a limb here and say my answer will not reflect the views of many (quite possibly any) other slaves or submissives. I tend to invent my own ideas and theories about things, so I don’t expect this post will be enlightening on a community level. (It might not even be enlightening on a Chloe-level. We’ll see.)
I’ve struggled with how to organize my responses to the questions. Maybe I should just go in order?
How can you be “owned” when at the end of the day, the power to submit (or not) is yours? Yes, your Master respects your limits, but if he did not…then you would change things. You agree that it IS in your power to do so.
I do agree that it is within my power to walk away from this relationship. It is not within my power to reorganize the relationship dynamic, but is it in my power to up and leave? It is.
However, I don’t know that I agree that my Master respects my limits. (This has been really difficult for me to think about, and I will probably have to revisit it in the future.)
He certainly respects his limits. But mine? I don’t think so.
It may appear he does, but that is only because I committed myself to a man who shares the same core, deal-breaker limits with me. We agree that things like bestiality, infidelity, incest, suicide, homicide, pedophilia, and necrophilia are off limits, period. But he’s not respecting “my” limits, there. Not by a long shot. He’s respecting his own. That’s why, for me, it was so important to find a man who felt this way. I would never have been able to truly belong to a man who didn’t. And my goal was never qualified submission. It was being owned.
I’ve written for a LONG time, writing and backspacing, about my other “limits” and I realized I’m not quite ready to have that discussion. I can’t make myself clear because I’m not clear in my head. My apologies for that, but it’s something I’ve got to think about a lot more before I know how to discuss it. It’s not even that relevant… well, yes it is very relevant… But, A-N-Y-W-A-Y…
My connotation of slave was someone who was owned and had no say, no limits of their own, could be even killed if their owner decided to do so.
To me, that’s just a connotation of slavery, not the connotation. The nuanced and personal nature of connotations means that words and phrases and ideas can have different meanings across societies, communities, individuals, and situations.
Granted, if someone says “a slave” outside the BDSM lifestyle, the most likely connotations coming to mind are that of the enslavement of Africans in the Americas, the products of Mesoamerican wars, the conquered peoples in the Roman Empire, etc. You’re exactly right. That’s a majority-of-the-time type of connotation.
But of course I am not a slave in the way the slaves of the south or the slaves in Roman times were slaves. For a thousand reasons, no, it’s not like that. And by saying I am a slave, I am not trying to equate myself with people who were forcibly enslaved and were the victims of unspeakable acts.
Just as equally, when I say slave… I am not referring to slaving a hard drive, a slave clock that answers to a master clock, the band Slave, or the card game.
I’m referring to a dynamic in a romantic relationship. Now, of course, the question remains… Why is THAT the best term for my dynamic? Why NOT submissive?
(This “ways the word slave is used” discussion leads me to an idea…. You know how some people equate owning animals as a form of slavery? Maybe that’s the best way for me to say “THAT kind of slavery.” I really am his pet. Alive and free-thinking. Devoted and dependent. The choice, at the end of the day, is mine whether I want to stick around. But without him? I’ve been domesticated. I’ve been trained. I could run away, but I’m REALLY dependent on him. And I want and need to stick around and be owned, much more than I want or need any kind of freedom that he doesn’t grant. I want to be fed and be loved and feel safe and protected and cared for by him. And I might not like performing all of the tricks, but I LOVE the look on my Master’s face when I do.)
So why call yourself slave then?
Well, I already talked about the pet/slavery idea briefly. But there are other reasons.
For one thing, if you look up definitions for the terms, based on the denotations of the words and my personal feelings, I feel I am primarily a slave, not submissive.
The second definition Merriam-Webster has for a slave is: “one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence.” And yes, exactly. That’s me.
Submissive is a bit harder to find an accurate definition because it gets thrown around as a noun, and it’s not. It’s an adjective. I’ll use its main entry, “submit.” Some of the definitions (like presenting something, as in “I’m submitting this for approval”) clearly make no sense. Ones like “to yield oneself to the authority or will of another” sound really close, right?
But those definitions are semantically equated with surrender. In fact, “surrender” is right there in the dictionary entry as a definition for the word “submit.”
And that’s not what my relationship is. This is not, primarily, a relationship built on surrender. To me, this is a relationship built on belonging.
In short, I see it as such: One who is a slave belongs to another. One who submits, surrenders to another. I belong to my Master. Do I submit to him sometimes – am I conquered? Yes. But is that my main relationship dynamic? No. Belonging to him, being owned by him, is.
I’m not saying I’m going to achieve a perfect state of “being property” (though I’d like to). I’m not saying I’m a slave in the way the slaves of the south were.
I guess all I’m saying is this: I don’t look at him and think “I submit to him” or “I am submissive to him.” I look at him and I think “I belong to him. He owns me.”
That’s the difference, to me.
(There is probably a whole lot more I could say. There are a million other thoughts in my head… But for tonight, that’s what my muddled and tired brain is thinking.)
This is great attempt to explain that which I think many of us have struggled to explain in the past. I’ve had this conversation with my sister slave/submissives in the past.
There are many who see the terms bottom, submissive and slave as being a kind of hierarchy. I’ve always seen it as a straight line spectrum, and where people fit onto it is very dependent on their relationship dynamic.
I am M’s slave because he says I am. At the beginning of our relationship he would have called me his submissive….because I hadn’t yet reached the point you write about here where even if I didn’t like performing all the tricks I loved the look on his face when I did (excellent phrase!).
There came a point in our relationship where something deep inside me shifted…where my focus really did become what I could give him and not what he could give me….where I understood that if I gave myself to him completely that, through doing so, I too would be fulfilled. I gave up the need to control my own fulfillment…….does that make sense?
It makes it sound easy doesn’t it….but I’d be the first to say sometimes its not…..but oh my goodness for me its certainly worth the effort.
Thank you for this posting…..you’ve taken me one step closer to being able to explain it not only to myself but to others too.
love and hugs xxx
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Chloe Reply:
January 28th, 2009 at 10:26 am
You’re welcome!
It was sort of… Fun for me, just to muse about it. I’m quite sure I haven’t figured it all out, and I have a Word document with 883 MORE words about it that I never posted. (I talk a lot. I’m sure you haven’t noticed!) But it’s fun for me to explore my own ideas.
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This is how I see it. Your definition and someone else’s definition will always be different. And you know there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. The whole problem with the bottom/submissive/slave thing is the all cross over each other, they simply are words. What happens is when you give those words a personal meaning for you it becomes a reality, yours and yours alone.
It is what it is between you and your Master and if you *feel* owned then that’s that. It shouldn’t require justification or answers to another. It really shouldn’t. Beautiful post x
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Chloe Reply:
January 28th, 2009 at 10:32 am
Agreed. And I hope it didn’t come across as justification. It was more that a comment gave me a chance to think about something that was fun to think about…
I am driven to answer almost any polite/curious question that comes my way because I have a tendency to ASK to many of them. I hate when I come off as impertinent, because I don’t mean to be. I’m just VERY curious by nature.
I think you’re right – and I actually have a whole post about the clutter that accumulates when we give “just words” too much emphasis. They can turn out minds into minefields.
Thanks for the comment.
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I like this. I like the pointing to that sense of “belonging.” It is, for me, the essence of this particular way of relating. And, no, slave isn’t a word that is accurately descriptive in a historical sense. It does however connote the notion of being owned without the connotations that “pet” has — and there is nothing at all wrong with those who choose that descriptor either.
In the end, I appreciate the effort to elucidate the ideas and emotions that accompany the use of the word “slave.” I don’t see you trying to justify it, but really only an effort to answer an honest question from someone who really is trying to understand.
Thank you.
swan
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Chloe Reply:
January 28th, 2009 at 10:38 am
Exactly, swan. If I felt attacked, like someone was asking for a justification? They wouldn’t get a moment of my time. But as I said to vanimp, I’m VERY curious by nature and I know the deep pull that understanding and learning can have on someone – they’ve got a hold on me! So I will always try to answer questions. I realize I’m no authority, but it’s rewarding for me to think about, and I hope it at least makes someone else think a little bit, and maybe it will come back to me in a karmic way and people will have a little more patience with my questions, and know I mean no harm.
I love the idea of belonging, too. So, so much. It’s my strongest attachment to Antonio, and it’s why I describe myself as I do. I belong to him. (I could say that all day long. It’s got quite a ring to it, doesn’t it? *smiles*)
Thank you for this.
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What a thoughtful and well-written post. This is such a sticky topic, because within the BDSM community there is such diversity of opinion on what these labels mean. I do think you’ve come closer to capturing the essence of the intent than most do.
I would add one thing that I do think is central to all BDSM activities and relationships, and that is the word consensual. What separates what it is that we do (WIITWD) from criminal activities is that word – consensual. Outside of a consenting relationship beating, forcing sex, cutting, whipping, binding, and everything else we do is illegal. But when I ask for it, no, beg for it, when I consent to have those things done to me, it’s no longer illegal. And that is true whether we call ourselves slave, submissive (you’re right – that’s not a noun!) bottom, or any other label.
I crave the experience of subspace, so I “consent” to have these things done to me. I choose to do so safely protected in a Master/slave dynamic, where He has the care and protection and safety of His property (me) as His first objective. If I were not owned by Him, if I did not belong to Him, would I be as safe? I don’t know.
Sorry for this long reply, your post really stirred something in me!
Tapestry
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Chloe Reply:
January 28th, 2009 at 11:10 am
No apologies for long comments – not in this blog! (I’d have to apologize at the end of every post if that were common practice here…)
Consent is definitely a big issue… I actually had a bit more written and didn’t post it, but it went into the ideas of consent and limits and consequences of choosing to end service, for the consenting and non-consenting. (Because I do think it’s within the elemental nature of humanity that even non-consenting slaves, “slave” in its historical use, can choose to end their service. Every breath we take is a choice, in a sense. But consent means their consequences are vastly different from mine. Namely, death (of themselves or their families) or the high probability of death upon capture.)
And… Is that true about the legality, btw? I admit, I am not up on the legal issues surrounding of a lot of this… But even if I ask for it, is it still completely legal for these things to occur? I mean, I was under the impression for certain things… Say, just say I’m drunk. Even if I beg and whine and throw myself at Antonio – technically isn’t that still rape? Aren’t I “incapable” of giving informed consent while intoxicated? So, while I personally feel he has my consent, legally, he might not have?
And the other actions, is it legal to beat someone up if they ask for it? Like… Boxing is legal?
(I’m hopelessly ignorant about this stuff.)
~Chloe
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Well, I read this late last night, and was not awake enough to post a coherent comment.
This morning, after a reread, I agree that you did a fine job answering a most difficult, yet common question.
I agree that the term slave implies the state of being owned. Works for me!
Very nice post.
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Thanks Chloe!
I have been here 3 times now and still need to mull things over a bit more before I have anything much worth saying, except that I do appreciate your explanation! And no, of course I was not asking for justification, rather trying to see your perspective, to better understand! Kind of an obsession of mine!
I’ll be back….
Sara
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Chloe Reply:
January 30th, 2009 at 5:38 pm
You’re welcome, Sara! One thing I didn’t address in my post, because it was just getting lengthy, was this statement:
Are you not just in a relationship in which you are more submissive than I am in mine?
That gave me pause.
I’m sure there are those that would completely agree with you and say this difference in nomenclature is really a difference of degree of submission, and nothing more. I’m also sure there are others who would say slavery is a totally different kind of relationship and that slave and submissive are not just two points in a vast gray scale of levels of submission, and are in fact two very different definitions for a partner in a relationship. And in either case? They can both be totally right, if that suits their needs for the definitions, you know?
But my personal short answer to this question? (Which might not have been what you were getting at, but interested me to think about!) I realized I have no idea if I am more submissive than you are…
For one thing, I feel uncomfortable making judgments about “degrees” of submission. Even if your limits, duties, etc. seem “less” submissive than mine, I’m not going to assume I know what it takes you, emotionally, to submit to them. I can’t pretend to know what your partner wants/requires, and how well you are meeting those wants and needs.
Should degrees of submission be decided by how satisfied the dominant partner is? How many routines you have? How much pain you can take or how many loads of laundry you can clean and dry and fold perfectly every week? How subservient the submissive partner feels? The sacrifice or degree of difficulty of the tasks?
I have no idea! So that lends support to the idea that perhaps this is not a difference of “degree” because we’d have to have an actual scale established to measure that… And it’s not a difference of kind of relationship either, not necessarily… It’s really just a difference in terminology that means something to me and my Master. And how you and your partner choose to define your relationship is with whatever terms mean the most to you.. What it means to anyone else can be interesting… But is ultimately empty information, unless it helps you understand and define your own relationship on a deeper level.
I really loved your question and your comments – you’ve given me a lot to think about and I’m always grateful for that.
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OK I completely admire the way your mind works! The things you mentioned after my reply were eye-opening. I don’t know that I have the answers to the legal questions, but I guess I’ll offer my feelings.
The intoxicated slave – I guess while being unable to give informed consent in that moment could be a problem, if we’ve given our Sirs our consent to control us in all ways previously, then wouldn’t it carry over into the drunken state? I’m not sure, I guess it’s just my take on the matter. Now for folks not involved in a power exchange type of relationship, I’m not sure the same level of agreement is present, so perhaps it follows that it’s not as legal as I believe our situation would be. Very good question Chloe.
Now about the boxing…
I guess I was really thinking just in terms of play between adults. Think of 2 adults choosing to engage in a sexual experience, and 1 of them suddenly starts whaling on the other – without the permission of the other person. The 2nd person did not consent to be whaled upon – therefore it is most definitely not OK, and person 1 could even end up facing criminal charges.
This is markedly different than a consensual power exchange relationship. Boxing is certainly consensual as well, therefore it is legal.
Wow – awesome questions.
You rock!
huggggg
Tapestry
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Chloe Reply:
February 3rd, 2009 at 1:42 pm
For the intoxication, I totally agree that my Master would have my consent, drunk or not. Legally, I doubt he would. But I would never feel like he did something wrong. And since there is no third party who couple possibly try to bring him up on charges, that’s all that matters to me!
But it’s the third party situations I worry about. I admit, I’m really ignorant about the legality of the play… I mean, what we do is assault in many other situations, but, like I said, not ALL. Such as boxing. And I think you’re totally right, that of course some of the things we do are VERY illegal without consent… I guess the part that gives me pause… (And I’m SURE someone somewhere has answered this and I’m just being a dolt for not looking it up.) Is what happens if I get whipped or beat and then, SOMETHING happens. It could be totally unrelated. My appendix bursts. I trip and break my ankle… Something. And I end up in the hospital. Is what my Master did to me earlier really legal? Can I say “Yup, I asked for it,” and it’s fine? I assume, at the least, there’d be hoops to jump through, they may call a social worker without even bothering to ask me or talk to me about it first… They may not believe me when I say “I wanted it.”
But would we just encounter the hassle of trying to explain? Or is there no explanation good enough – IS there some legal recourse doctors, nurses, or other mandated reporters might feel compelled to explore? I think I need to google this later.
Antonio says I worry too much. I have NO idea what he’s talking about.
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Further Thoughts On Slaves and Submissives « Finding Sara says:
[...] Several weeks ago I asked Chloe, who writes the blog “She Obeys” to talk to me about what being a slave meant. She was kind enough to write about it and her post is here. [...]
Hi Chloe, I FINALLY put together a coherent response to your post. It is on my blog:
http://findingsara.wordpress.com/2009/02/08/further-thoughts-on-slaves-and-submissives/
Thanks for being willing to have this discussion! Sara
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Chloe Reply:
February 8th, 2009 at 8:35 pm
Thank you, Sara! I have an Excel spreadsheet calling my name – somewhat alarmingly so in volume
– at the moment, so a coherent response on my part will have to wait a bit. But I was so excited to see this in my inbox. Thanks again!
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Dialogues On Diversity « Finding Sara says:
[...] Then I asked a question on submissive vs slaves …and the differences, and she answered with “Slave vs. Submissive”. [...]